Lutz Möller
Munition von der
Lutz Möller GmbH!
Lutz Möller GmbH!
I love Drive Bands
Safety first: Stay out the Proving ground!
A Model of Kummersdorf Artillery Range some 100 Years ago, the erected Structures are the Chronographs
Bunker, destroyed fortification targets
Fin stabilized shaped charge jet shell ~ Russian, 1980
Grenade splinter
Moss on Concrete, blown up Test fortification
blown up Test fortification
Old coarse Concrete, many Stones, no Steel
Supporting Bricks under the Concrete
On the Range
Grenade relic
View bunker along the main Range
Mushrooms in the overgrown Pine forrest
Old Test fortification relics from 1875
1875 Fortification shot down
A close look an the 1875 Concrete - many Stones - but no fortifying Steel then
A Concrete flower: Distel, whatever this in English may be called - it stitches
A Concrete flower: Rosette
A Cave in the Brick Concrete Fortification
Another Cave in the Brick Concrete Fortification
1875 Concrete
Noel,
I got this from one of our really good customers
Mac Tilton at MT Guns. He called me the other day to order a .338 barrel in a
1-7 twist. I asked him what in the hell did he need that for. He said he had a
customer who wanted him to build a gun for a .338 Lapua and this is what he
wants to shoot. I asked him who’s bullets is he getting he said they are made in
S. Afrietwa He said he would send me what he had it. Interesting reading!? The
bullet maker is called GSC. GS Custom in South Afrietwa What do you make of all
this? I know Trace and I and you havent’ gotten together yet on the phone and I
apologize. I was sick most of last week and early this week and Trace has got it
now also. Lets plan on a day early next week. Mac just ordered a standard 1-7
twist .338 barrel. I didn’t tell him anything about what you are working on.
Later, Frank, Freitag, 15. Februar 2008 22:13
P.S. go to www.accurateshooter.com
go to they’re daily bulletin dated 11-28-07 and there is an article in there
about the GSC drive band bullets from GSC. I found it when I did a search on GSC.
Gerard,
Thanks for the quick reply. Please process my
order with out the 295s for the 338. Who makes the best barrel for the 1in 7
twist 338? I will have my gunsmith (Mac Tilton) order one. Please explain how
this was developed.( If you have time and patience for a novice)
Thanks, Steve (Jennings)
Hi Steve,
The 395gr bullet was developed for Rheinmettall
in Germany as part of a collaborative project to prove a point I suppose.
Rheinmettal wanted to sponsor a team for the bi-annual Lapua Sniper Competition
as it carries a lot of prestige. They used a Sako TRG - 42 fitted with a Lothar
Walther 1:7" twist barrel, a specially developed Schmidt & Bender scope and
Recknagel trigger and other bits. We were given the basic dimensional parameters
for the bullet and asked to optimise the drive bands and boattail. The result
was the 295gr .338 SP. In the hands of Tom Marsti and his team mate Pasi
Lonnberg, they have now won the competition three out of four. Regrettably, the
co-ordinator of the project, Lutz Moeller, saw fit to "appropriate" our bullet
design, registered a German patent (now voided) and started making copies which
he now supplies, claiming that he is the originator. That is another story.
The Lapua Sniper Competition is shot at a variety of distances and averages
around 750 meters. They have several exercises and the highest aggregate wins.
Since the truth about the bullet development and Mr. Moellers underhanded
involvement and fraudulent patent application has become known, the sponsorship
has been terminated.
The 295gr SP we now make is in any case a third generation improvement over the
first one we developed and superior to the Moeller bullet.
We will go ahead with the order, thank you very much for doing business with us.
If I can assist in any other way, just let me know.
Regards, Gerard (Schultz), Tuesday, February 12, 2008 07:10 AM
Gerard,
You mislead the Audience.
Drive band Bullets or Shells are quite old. They were and are widely used in Artillery shells all over the World. Artillery shells are usually made from Cast Iron, that is Way to hard to be engraved by the helical Lands t torque the Shell that is spins and then flies stable in Air. A good Artillery Shell's shank Ø is dimensioned slightly below the Bore Ø. The Drive band(s, if multiple, rare today) is slightly bigger than the Grove Ø, so the Band(s) seal against eroding high pressured, high Temperature Gas leaks. So the Bands shall take the Torque and spin the Shell and seal the driving pressured Gasses. See below old recovered Drive band Shells from Kummersdorf, a main German Artillery Proving Ground south of Berlin built after the Invention of the Nitro Propellant, that changed all.
8,5 cm artillery shell ~1910, four Two Drive bands. The two Bands support the Shell against Yaw
12 cm Artillery shell ~ 1910, Eight Drive bands, The yielding Bands have ample Place to flow to reduce Forces.
15 cm Artillery shell ~ 1911, Two Drive bands, partly cut, but not enough to reduce Engraving forces.
Two 20 mm singl Drive band Shells for the 20x138B
Cartridge. A moderner Design after WWI
This type is common today. I make new Brass sport bullets for the Cartridge for
the recreational Shooter.
Sonderkraftfahrzeug with 20 20x138B Gun
Exploring the Panzersteppe with patented Socks.
The Patent is to have different Socks left and right and mark them left an right. What an Invention!
A left over Panzer
Fin stabilized Stuff from the Airplanes need no Drive Bands to deliver Rotation.
Fin stabilized Tank shaped charge jet Grenade to be shot from a rifled Tank gun
Bands on a Fin stabilized will not deliver Torque to spin the Shell but guide the Shell in a rifled Tank gun.
My initial Trials in 2001 in 8,5 mm from the 8,5x64 into Sand. Those delivered not yet low Engraving Force low Friction.
In 2000 I wanted a better Hunting bullet, than available on the Market. The Industry was not interested at all. Gerard Schultz / GS Custom / South Africa already made Copper bullets. So I approached Gerard for Bullets. He in turn wanted an aerodynamic Design for a .50"BMG Bullet, that I delivered on 6th July 2001 as a Drawing + Meridian dimensions for the Haack minimum wave drag nose.
My .50" BMG Bullet design for Gerard Schultz from 2001
Gerard later said, those Bullets went to Arabia and performed well, much better then all others. I have no Idea or Control on who got those Bullets and what was done with them.
Some of my 2007 Sport bullets. A Long twist .50 BMG MSG to the right
Wolfgang Siegfried Haack published Lilienthal Bericht 139-1 W. Haack 1941 (pdf 2,4 MB) the analytical Solution to minimize the the Wave drag with given Boundaries 1941, but apparently the French had something closely previous, see Haack Minimum Drag Bullet. So I just use available Knowledge.
In that Time I looked for Help on Bullet design, especially how the deduct the Overturning Moment in a free Air stream from geometry. The old Munk (also from Hamburg) Model was not precise enough and in those Days I had no Capabilities for Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD), as I have now. Dr. Gerd Wollmann / Rheinmetall helped with Discussions, as did Johan Loubser / Somchem / Denel. Johan is now with Accurate Powders in Montana. It was Johan Loubser who first outlined to me and Gerard Schultz the Dependencies between Engraving forces and Combustion space dynamics. I immediately understood the great Potential to increase Bullet speeds within Pressure Limits from Findings with the added Benefit to reduce Barrel heating fro Series Fire as sport shooters. Again, I applied only used available Knowledge.
Long and 155 mm Long Range Shells from Denel, the Johan Loubser`s Home with a single Drive band
The Equivalent from Rheinmetall
When You look at GS Custom Bullets though, You may notices, they do not benefit from Loubser's Wisdom. Apparently Gerard in Practice did not follow his good and free Advice.
Then I still wanted Bullet from South Afrietwa
Copper alloys, are for hollow pointed Hunting bullets the Material of Choice. Unfortunately Gerard never delivered Bullets in Time, even though I helped him to procure electronic control modules for his little broken CNC Lathe, that he had a Problem to do himself. Even after the got the Lathe up and running again I faced no Bullets for my 6,5x65 Heym SR20N when I visited him in 2003 for a Hunting trip in South Afrietwa Consider this: You travel ¼ around the Globe to test some Bullets You ordered for Hunting and when You arrive they were not there. I was offered a 7x57 Mauser. Gerard had a box of uncleaned Brass of various Manufacturers, so I had to pick some and load and go. We measured the Speed and sighted the Rifle.
I asked about the B.C.s on his Website. His Answers shew, they were derived for various G-Curves, but those were not stated. So how could I reliably calculate Trajectories and Wind drift? You bet, I was not comfortable for long Ranges.
The Idea for the LM-105 long range bullet was a logical Step to utilize the Possibilities of turned Bullets, as You make those longer than pressed Bullets. To shoot very long Bullets ( 6 - 7 Calibers long) You need steep Twists, up to 9 degrees or 20 Calibers long. Those were not easily available at that Time. So I founded a Consortium to design, make and use them in a Competition. Rheinmetall asked for 10 Days Engineering to answer my Question on cm', so I rejected the Offer and designed the LM-105 with my then limited Capabilities aerodynamically by myself. Gerard did the Drive bands. Dr. Frank Walther / Lothar Walther agreed to supply Gain twist Barrel. Penttii Louhisola / Sako agreed to supply a TRG-42 to carry the Barrel and assemble the Rifle. Hans A. Bender / Schmidt &Bender agreed to provide PMII Rilfe scopes and Janne Pohjoispaa / Lapua agreed to supply .338" Lapua Magnum Cases. Tom Marstii and later Jari Purannen agreed to shoot the Rilfe. We won the first Time we appeared on the Lapua Sniper Cup. Other Folks with other Guns still win Sniper Competitions, but those are internal Events in the Military between friendly Nations and no Publicity is wanted or will be tolerated. So I know, what I deliver and it's good.
As Gerard never reliably shipped ordered Bullets, I made my own. Her some come:
6,5 mm KJG 2003 of the utility patented Low friction solid drive band bullet design
7,62 mm KJG 2003 and 2004
The sealing Drive band is lenght wise scratched. The Shank shows Turn marks
9,3 mm Destroyer 2005
9,3 mm Destroyer 2005 in Africa
10,3 mm with turned Pastic tip
10,3 mm KJG 697 m/s into 4 cm Gelatine 2004, Photo: Peter Grieder
10,3 mm KJG 697 m/s into 4 cm Gelatine 2004, Photo: Peter Grieder
Slowly shot .45-70 KJG
Complete .458" KJG Drive band Failure, the Bands are stretched
9,3 mm KDG killed a Moose
This 8,5 mm KJG killed the biggest Boar in Turkey 2006
8 mm KJG spitz 970 m/s into Water and Sand 2007
Water target viewed from the Top with Sand stop to catch the Bullet
8 mm KJG spitz 970 m/s into Water and Sand 2007 (Surface marks from Sand)
Copper is harder than Lead. So You cannot fire Copper bullets from Barrels geometrically and historically made for jacketed Lead Bullets. If You do You face very high Engraving forces, (sometimes dangerously) raised initial Pressures, strong Fouling and by high Friction quick Barrel Heating.
Lost River Vallistics Copper Nickel .408 Bullet for the .408 Chey Tac
Lost River Ballistic Bullets feature no Drive band at all, because the Originator believe for some patented Reason, they disturb the Airstream too much and calls the "Drag bands". At a given upper Pressure limit Your will never get same Speeds then with a LM-Class bullet an will neither shoot the same long Series until the Barrel heated Air obscures the Target and Fouling disperses the High engraving force and High friction Bullets all over the Target.
Top 6,5 mm KJG
Below .458 Barnes X full solid Shank
Presses Bullets cannot have Drive bands so they always deliver high Engraving force and high Friction, raise Pressure so Loads and Speeds drop, but Heat and Fouling rises. Nothing a Sport shooter can tolerate at all.
My Utility patent emphasizes low Engraving force and low Friction compared to other Bullet designs, including conventional jacketed Lead bullets. Third Party Measurements proved my Design:
for the American National Defense Industry Association
let
Arrow Tech Associates, Inc.
- Jeff Siewert -
1233 Shelburne Rd., Suite D-8
S. Burlington, Vt. 05403
Phone +1 - 802-865-3460 x19 http://www.prodas.com/,
well known by his Small Caliber Engraving Force Measurements Presentation 2004, in a M240 Machine gun barrel
compare two 7,62 mm Bullets, namely a conventional 7,62 mm 9,5g M80 Full metal jacket bullet and the 2004 7,62 mm Lutz Möller Geschoß. The Push test measured Force over Distance into Throat and Barrel lands. The Results of 40 averaged Measurements follow:
The conventional M80 FMJ needs 38% higher Peak force than the Lutz Möller KJG (Copper hunt bullet) to pres the Bullet through the Throat into the Barrel lands .
s shows the Standard deviation from the multiple Measuremenst from the Average. a low Standard deviation indicates Uniformity over all Samples. The obvious Observation, the Lutz Möller Geschosse perform (previously unbelievable) better is probably due to the the different Candidates, that are no really comparable. The M80, a cheap Volume product - Machine gun fodder for a belt fed Gun with rather great Hunger against the Copper hunt bullet for a precise single Shot.
The Force measurements indicate the Copper hunt bullet Benefits impressively clear.
Various MSG, mainly the LM-105, shoot rather well in short and long Distance up to 1,5 km under adverse conditions = gusty Wind, Rain showers, Mountains. They proved their suitability for the indicated Task, means to hit a far Target in windy Conditions. You never know the Wind. Therefore wind drift optimized Bullets outperform others.
Recovered GS Custom HV bullets look like this.
Recovered GS Custom HV bullet
You find more of that Kind on his Website. Now those Bullets clearly show, Gerard Schultz did not listen to Johan Loubsers good Advice on the Dependencies between initial Forces and dynamic Combustion space.
There is a Peculiarity with the KJG Hunt bullets I make from Copper, as other currently available Materials are inadequate for that Purpose. The Copper is an Alloy (1% non Copper) specially suited to be turned on Automats. That Alloy, to my Knowledge, is not available in South Afrietwa The available 99,99% electrolytic Copper (E-Copper) is too soft. It yields to fast, as one my anticipate from above CS Custom HV Bullets. Bullets from E-Copper cannot be machined as precise and as fast as from the special German alloy, I will not disclose.
Noel Carlson advised me, to look for Possibilities to economize the Sport Bullets. Below is a old Trial, the second on the left. A 9,5 mm MSG. It is from Brass. While Brass is inadequate for a Hunt bullet, the Material is ideal for Sport bullets. The Cost is lower and the Ability to be machined is better.
Own and third party 8,5 mm Bullets of good and bad aerodynamic Shape.
The right Wreck recovered from a Bison, I shot. See
Bisonjagd.
But Brass has a lower Density then Copper. Therefore Brass bullets place stringenter Requirements on Spin stabilization. Read Beat Kneubuehl on Bullet stability: What is the Maximum Lenght of a spinstabilized Projectile? A regular TRG-42 could not stabilize the above 8,5 mm MSG , the second on the left.
Tumbled 8,5 mm MSG out of a regular TRG-42
Usually Bullets hit the Target well
Fortunately now Noel Carlson offers CNC single point cut Gain twist Barrels to satisfy those Requirements with, so the old copper mad Sport Bullets can be phased out and the new Brass LM-Class appears to the demanding Long range shooter with very high BC for long Ranges.
A gas dynamic hdp Recoil Brake is a Requirement for LM-Class Sport bullets
LM-119 for the .375 Chey Tac with Haack nose and Adams Tail
Lutz Moeller, 16th February 2008,
Lutz
I cannot begin to explain the importance of the work you do and the information
you supply. Your website is probably the best single
most important site for bullet information and a plethora of other issues.
I have the book by Harold Vaughn, Rifle
Accuracy Facts. I have read it many times and reference it often. Your work
and your website are the companion to Harold’s work.
I only wish that your site was completely in English and German. I look over the
pictures and can sometimes figure out what is being discussed but a translated
version would greatly help this matter as you can imagine. I think there is a
lot more to be learned from your site if it were in English. The articles and
email traffic that is in German has within it I suspect small bits of
information that could play a key element when people are thinking about asking
a question.
How hard would it be to translate it or have it translated?
Dave, Samstag, 16. Februar 2008 20:31
Dave,
my Site was written in Years. To maintain it is an ongoing Process. To translate it by Hand it impossible for me. If You cannot read Germany, You will have to resort to some Machine Translation, available on the Net.
Regards Lutz
Dear Mr Moeller,
my name is Giancarlo Tatarella , and I'm an italian shooter who
recently started to study the monolithic bullet with
drive band
technology.
I own a Sako TRG-22 chambered in .308" Winchestter a.k.a 7,62x51 NATO, and like most of my friends I
try every time to reach the best out of my rifle. Following that idea I started to develop several loads for a south
african monolithic bullet, but every time I founded that no benefits
comes out, or better, nothing that can outstand the classic
performance reached at 1000 meters with the sierra HPBT 155 grains
palma match.
LM: No wonder!
Recentely I talked with a couple of friend and they suggested me to
write you a letter to find out if there is a way correct way for my
experiments.
LM: Good!
First of all : My Sako has a classic 1:11" twist
LM: You name the Cause!
My suspect is that if I want to have an outstanding performance with a monolithic bullet whit drive bands the only way is to change my barrel with a custom barrel with a progressive twist ( just like the guy who wins the lapua competition with a sako .338 LM and your bullets ). Is it correct?
LM: No. First You want a short Twist, for You 7,62 mm Bore with a 7,83 mm Ø Bullet say 1 Turn in 180 mm, or 23 Calibers or 7.78° (about). To ease the Sher stress on the Drive bands, then a progressive Twist would allow thinner Drive bands with less Engraving force and less Friction for more Powder, higher Efficiency and hence higher Speed and longer Range.
Considered that I shoot most of the time in the long range ( 600 mt and beyond ) if I'm right which is the best combination of twist ( from throat to muzzle ) for a .308 barrel ?
LM: As above.
Second question is about the weight ( or better, the lenght ) of the bullet.
I've discovered that the longer the bullet is, the better the
ballistic coefficient is also.
LM: Very well noticed. That is the Case and Reason for the short Twists.
Considered that I try to have a good performance at 1000 mt, should I buy a heavier ( longer ) bullet?
LM: Only, with a short twist Barrel!
Unfortunately my chamber ( like all of the commercial rifle ) isn't good enough to fit a drive band bullet at free bore zero with at least 2 band in the case. Should I crimp the cartridge?
LM: You can, but You must not!
I've tried several loads with several different cases, and my best
results comes out with the Vihtavuori N-140 loaded with 3,14 g and
no magnum primers.
I've also tried the 2,88 g N-130 with federal gold medal
magnum primers,
LM: Small Amounts of fast Powders like the N130 need no Magnum primers, nor will they better any Load! Stop that!
But even if the speed was good ( 3000fps) the case
were damaged for the high pressure.
I only use Lapua brass , and I never had any problems with standard
primers CCI BR-2.
I've also tried different loads with the software "quickload" but even
if the results are satisfactory , in the real world there are a lot of
difference and bad news.
LM: The good Software cannot predict Powder
changes that are common all time.
I look with curiosity to your new generation of KJG with 'plastic'
tip, and I wonder if those bullets were developed for hunting purpose
LM: Yes!
Or can give advantages even in long range precision shooting contests.
LM: With Precision ? Yes beyond Doubt, but Wind
drift? No, as they are short and not designed for 600 - 1000 m.
One last question:
One of my friends told me that you had developed a special cartridge
for him and his Sako. He told me that the name is "Casteltermini". Can you tell me more about it?
LM: That was not a Cartridge, but a Bullet,
tailored for .308" Cartridges with usual 305 mm Twist 12" and optimised for 500
m open Range in the Wind.
Thank you again for your patience , and excuse me for the bother.
best regards
Giancarlo Tatarella, Sonntag, 8. November 2009 02:08
1. You want a reliable and safe Weapon (actually the Basis, that cannot be
discussed)
2. You want small Size delivering great Performance (the Dream)
3. To achieve 1 and 2, (safe, reliable, small, performing) within limits choose
both
a) long Bullets with short Twist
b) short Barrels with high Pressures
Failing to follow 3a (long Bullets with short Twist) will increase difficult Wind drift and unwantedly curve the Trajectory
Failing to follow 3b (short Barrels with high Pressures) will increase Barrel length and Muzzle flash
Lutz Möller, November 2009
Lies auch 8,5 mm KSG Fernado und Büffel Australien 2008 mit .338" LM und LM-105 456 m Oryx 2009
.280" British ♪.280" Ross ♪ 30-06 ♪ .375" H+H ♪ .375" Chey Tac ♪ .408" Chey Tac ♪ 408 Lapua ♪ .577" Tyrannosaur ♪ 6,5 mm Copper in Africa ♪ 6,5 mm ♪ 6,86 mm ♪ 7,63 x 25 Mauser ♪ 6 mm PPC ♪ 7 mm ♪ 7,62 mm ♪ 7,62 mm MSG ♪ 8 mm ♪ 8 mm Mazón ♪ 8x68S ♪ 8,5 mm ♪ 9,3 mm ♪ 9,5 mm (.375") ♪ Accuracy ♪ Air drag Coefficient Calculator ♪ Ballistic Flight Calculator ♪ Ballistic Coefficient Discussion ♪ Barrel life ♪ Big Five ♪ Bow wave ♪ The Cure ♪ Concussion ♪ Copper Huntbullet ♪ Detonation ♪ Elefant ♪ F Class ♪ Futility ♪ Haack minimal Drag Bullet ♪ Hans Cronander Exterior Ballistic ♪ Hunt wounds ♪ Hunt bullets ♪ Gunfight rules ♪ Gun violence in Brittain ♪ Lead free Bullet ♪ Leopard hunt ♪ Limpopo ♪ LM-101 ♪ LM-105 ♪ LM-119 ♪ Load development ♪ Long Sniper shot ♪ Military wounds ♪ Muzzle Brake ♪ more Guns = less Crime ♪ MR ♪ No Shockdeath ♪ Observation ♪ Penetration ♪ Progressive Twist Barrels ♪ Pressure Factors ♪ Recoil brake ♪ Recoil Measurement ♪ Rifle Accuracy Facts ♪ Rifle Barrel ♪ Roast Game ♪ Russian Sniper Competition Birobidzhan ♪ Round Nose Bullets fail ♪ Silent Stalker ♪ Savchenko Supercaviation ♪ Short Barrel ♪ The Cure ♪ V2 ♪ Wild Boar ♪ Wind drift ♪
Read the News
