LM Munition
Neuigkeiten
Suche
5,6 mm
6,5 mm
7 mm
7,62 mm, .30"
8 mm S
9,3 mm
Seltenes
Geschosse
Feuerschlucker
Munition
Ballistik
Rückstoßbremsen
Schießen
Jagd
Wild
Waffen
English
Lutz Möller
Lutz Möller
lm@lutz-moeller-jagd.de
MJG, KJG und Munition liefert die Lutz Möller GmbH
Munition von der
Lutz Möller GmbH!

Das Wesentliche am Schuß ist der Treffer  - nicht das Geschoß.

.408" Cheyenne Tactical

.408" MSG 1021 with 900 m/s in Flight to the Target (dynamic Pressure shown)

.408" CT MSG 1021, 56 mm long. 26 g Mass, BC 0,95 for 113,5 mm long .408"Chey Tac Cartridge in 762 mm Barrel

.408 Chey tac MSG Load data

Powder Mass
[g]
Density
[%]
Pressure [bar] Burnrate
[%]
V0
[m/s]
Remark
Peak Muzzle
Alliant Reloader 22 8,17 100 4.457 668 100 890
Hogdon H4350 7,60 94,5 4.337 624 100 864
Hogdon H4831 8,17 104 4.191 657 100 872
IMR 7828 8,10 101,3 4.311 673 100 888
Norma MRP 8,30 99,4 4.546 675 100 900 recommended
PCL 517 8,80 102 4.370 684 100 896
Ramshot Magnum 8,80 101,2 4.382 684 100 897
Rottweil R905 8,10 100,2 4.405 670 100 883
Vihtavuori N560 8,20 101,4 4.475 592 100 861
Vihtavuori N560 8,20 905 Measurements
Vihatvuori N165 8,15 100,8 4.384 591 100 856
Vihtavuori N170 8,40 103,3 3.548 653 100 820
Path
Range [m] 0 200 400 600 800 1000 1200
Velocity [m/s] 900 838 775 710 648 589 533
Path [cm] -5 +130 +208 +222 +156 0 -227
Wind drift [cm] 0 3,5 14 32 62 101 156

More .408" MSG Pictures

JGS # Reamer / Martino Baisotti, here an Example

Kreisrunde Löcher

Hallo Herr Möller,

vielleicht wissen Sie es schon, Herr Romey hat gestern die ersten Patronen in .408" Chey Tac (kleiner Zünder) geladen und mit einer EDM-Waffe verschossen. Erstaunlich ist, daß Ihr langes Geschoß (400 grs) kreisrunde Löcher macht und das mit einer V0 von 950 m/s!

Viele Grüße, L. S. , Freitag, 17. September 2004 08:31
PS: Ihr Mann in Afrika hat je Nerven, der schießt ja R93!

LM: Dann sind die Dinger noch reibungsärmer als ich dachte!

The Copper alloy Bullet and the leaded Brass 56 mm Bullets differ in Material. While the Copper alloy weighs 8,9 g/cm² the leaded Brass is with 8,45 g/cm³ slightly lighter. with equivalent Shape the heavier one has BC0,95 while the lighter on has BC 0,9. This means the Copper alloy Performance bullet will against the Wind shoot not worse than a .50 BMG with the Hornady A-Max. The leaded Brass version will be cheaper and only slightly less performing, so a real good Value for the Money.

The unique aerodynamic Design (Minimum Drag Nose), low friction Drive Bands that consequently allow to upload  within safe Pressure limits to faster Speeds that both Bullets are believed to outshoot anything currently commercially on the Market in windy Conditions. Such detailed ballistic Predictions have been made for an existing Bullet line, see Kupferjagdgeschoß, an practical Results agreed well with Theory, so we have no Doubt to score once more.

Lutz,

the only one that can compete is the 112.5 mm copper-alloy. The information I need to provide to those who wish to purchase the bullet is:

What were my personal experience with it at 100 meters? LM: Shoot them to know!

Bullet type? LM: Haack Minimum Drag Nose!

Bullet weight? LM: .408" Copper alloy bullet, 56 mm long, 27,15 g heavy, BC 0,95!

Case type? LM: Dieter Horneber

Powder? LM: Try PB Clermont PCL 517 dense double based Powders from Belgium! US market distributed through WESTERN POWDERS Inc. MT www.westernpowders.com

Primers? LM: CCI Large Rifle Magnum!

Seating depth's? LM: between 112,5 and 113 mm!

When signs of pressure first appear on cases? LM: Above are maximum Loads!

Maximum load capacity? LM: Load Density in % is given in the Tables!

Velocity of that load? LM: Read the Tables.

Which load grouped .5 MOA or less with the highest velocity. LM: First load and shoot the Laddertest to find the least sensitive Loads! LM: Troy, Your Task!

Then to 914.4 meters then to 1605 meters then to 1828 and so on until the groups start to dramatically expand and become ineffective for soft targets 660 mm groups. LM: Troy, Your Task!

At this point i will have a witness "Blaine", and proven statistics for the bullet with the Ballistic Computer models as well.

I also corresponded with the http://www.precisionworkbench.com/ owner about new, more realistic computer software for palm heal ballistic devises. I arranged to go shooting up to 2000 meters for extreme range long (ELR) data, he  recently was unable to acquire. I will ask him to accompany me or make his own way to Raton, NM to market his product there, as well as gain test results from the match with the new bullet design.

Did you get the specifications from actual tests or from a Ballistics Program? LM: All Data presented are calculated, either by commercial CAD-Programs or own Software. Up to now i designed some 20 Bullets and so far Experience tells, my Models and Programs fit well.

The Airdrag (deutsch Luftwiderstand) stems from 1974 Robert McCoy Program in Basic, adapted into JavaScript to run on the Web. The Bullet flight (deutsch Außenballistik) is again a JavaScript Program for the Web, written after Siacci's and d'Antonio's Mathematics from 1834 with recent Refinements by Arthur Pejsa. See more on Cw(v).

Read an Explanation here http://www.precisionworkbench.com/4.htm, who uses the same Approach.

Michael Reifenberger ported it in a rudimentary Version for handheld Devices with SuperWaba. You find him and BalCal on https://www.reifenberger.com.

My exterior Ballistics Airdrag have serious Program flaws below 425 m/s, so use them not below! While i could fix that, i never saw the Necessity, as all Bullets then already fall like a Stone out of the Sky. The hamd held Version could also be finished, if needed. Obviously Blaine L. Fields / Lex Talus Corporation uses the same Approach and his Software is probably much User friendlier, so i recommend to try it.
 

If so what was the finished Bullet weight? LM: As stated in the Tables above,

.408" Chey Tac Möller Loads 27,15g

Troy, Samstag, 5. Juni 2004 02:35

.338"-408" Chey Tac Cases

Ballistic Prediction

Troy,

with the above outlined Tool set plus Hartmut Brömels Interior Ballistic Program QuickLoad and Cartridge Design Program QuickDesign plus an Understanding of the Work of these Men,

Ludwig Prandtl / Freising Germany early 20th Century found Fluid mechanics. Upon his Work are all others based. If one had studies his Work then, Terminal Ballistics would have advanced then too.

Prandtls Götting Student, Theodore von Kármán /  Hungary, calculated already in the 20ties first the Minimum Drag Nose for a Bullet.

The Hamburger Max Munk calculated slender Bullet Moment derivations at small Inclination Angles. Beat Kneubühl / in Thun later proceeded to find the longest spin stabilized Bullet. B. K. Report is available per FTP or Email upon Request  (auf deutsch hier).

Wolfgang Haack / Berlin expanded Kármáns Work. In Peenemünde he published (secret within the Wehrmacht) 1941 a closed analytical Solution for the Minimum Drag Bullet. I use his Mathematics to shape performance critical Bullets, like .408" Chey Tac Möller

any Physicist can design Cartridges and Bullets from Scratch and predict their Performance, as i do. The Art is in these Days much further advanced, but to get the Ground work right, such Tools work well. With good Gun Smiths Craftmanship like from EDM Arms and fine Tools like from David Manson Precision Reamers, a Gildemeister CNC-Lathe, sound Advice on Alloys Kupferinstitut, a dependably Copper Refinery to deliver quality Metals for the Automats, a good Result on the first Go was proven on more than 20 Bullet designs on the first Flight; and this includes Terminal Ballistics on Hunt bullets. No Miss so far, Bench rest stuff included!

So to say the Bullet Design and Fabrication process is understood is no Stretch or even ,,Magic", but day to day Work. If You state a Goal, i shall find a Solution (if exits) to deliver Product within short Time (Weeks). It's not cheap, but predictable. So you get stated Performance right away, not just Stuff to play or simply waste Resources. That's the Difference between an engineered Product and a Piece of Metal!

Lutz Möller,

Lutz,

Blaine cannot go to Raton, we are shooting the 3rd week in July for the ballistics software. The Fifty Caliber Shooter Association is strongly objects to fire other calibers then .50 at the match. We planned to shooting Thursday and Friday before the match. I have already been warned not to.

Troy, Sonntag, 6. Juni 2004 01:42

Lutz,

Good to hear from you again.  I am keeping track of your efforts through Troy and hope you can get the product here for testing. I was sorry to hear the price has escalated from 1.65 estimate to almost 3 US dollars.

LM: I always quoted between 2 and 2,1 €. With 1,22 $/€ Exchange rate, that amounts 2,44 to 2,56 USD + Freight. So I never increased the Price. You mix the Price for the big 56 mm long and 27 g heavy Bullet, with smaller Hunt bullets in the 30 Millimeter Range and around 10 g. Those are 1,3 € or 1,59 $. The Length increases Machine time and when the Noses become very slender, machining must slow down. Therefore the big (.40" and .50" Cal. Performance Bullets are and will always be expensive.

So If this is true, its capability would not matter because no one could afford to shoot it but militaries or hit men!

I also hope your larger Bullet becomes possible. The other version with a lead and bronze allow does not sound very appealing. I refuse to shoot Lost River Bullets anymore because of severe fowling of what I guess to be Bronze and Nickel.

I am relatively happy with the Barnes 421.4 grain all copper bullets newly available.

LM: I have no Information about that Bullet so far. Please send me a Picture and tell me the Price!

I am in course in touch with the same small community as you including EDM Arms.

I wonder how you can project a BC for the larger bullet without any being fired?

LM: Read Ballistic Prediction. The Art is not new and currently much more advanced, than stated above. 

Randy Cullinan, Sonntag, 6. Juni 2004 04:46

 

Barnes

Ty,

would you please be so kind, to send me some Information about the further down mentioned Barnes .408" grain bullets newly available.

A Picture and a recommended Sales Price would help.

Sincerely, Lutz, Sunday, June 06, 2004 4:28 AM


Hi Lutz

Thanks for the email. Recently I have been in contact with Randy Cullinan. We have quoted him pricing on our all Brass bullets. It is as follows. We are going to do a limited run and are pricing them at $24 per box of 20. We are also offering a 10% discount for orders over 500. They will be .408 diameter and will weigh 419 grains. They are similar in design to the .510 cal Long Range Solids that we currently hold the world record with.

 

I attached a page from our catalog that will show some photos of the 50BMG Long Range Solids that look similar to the 408 Chey-Tac 419gr that we are offering. The bottom row will give the closest resemblance. If you have any other questions or would like to place an order, you can call me at the toll free number below.

We Aim to please. Reloading is a great hobby, enjoy it!

Ty Herring, Customer Service, TyH@barnesbullets.com

Barnes Bullets Inc., P.O.Box 215, American Fork, Ut 84003, Tel 801-756-4222, Fax 801-756-2465

Ty,

please look at this Page. You know, Competition is more Fun (read the old Pin ball machines).

Sincerely, Lutz, 9th June 2004

Good to hear from you again Lutz.

You are correct, a little competition is more fun and good advertisement for the sport. To answer your other questions, the 419gr .408 cal Barnes Monolithic Brass Solid is 2.133" (54,18 mm) with a canular ring and preliminary 300 yd tests show a true BC of .850. Thanks for the great questions.

Ty Herring, Mittwoch, 9. Juni 2004 23:23

Lutz

I will have to cancel my order. No one will buy the bullets. I fell strongly, they will work, due to their design, but they are not applicable at that cost. For me, to continue to research, the actual results would be of personal financial cost to me and not advance the availability of bullets within reasonable cost for others.  I can purchase 50 bullets from whoever pays for the entire run of bullets and would be happy to send you the results of the bullets behavior after personally firing the bullet. My apologies for the outcome, but i am still willing to shoot your bullets for actual results from my rifles.
 
With Kindest Regards,  Troy, Freitag, 11. Juni 2004 23:38

Troy,

at least you finally say, what you mean, unlike others, who just to stopped to communicate.

When Ty Herring / Barnes offered a limited Run .408" Bullets with tentative .85 BC @ 1,20$ / Piece in 20 Piece Boxes, the Air to breathe thinned out. I have no Idea, how real his Prices relate to real Cost, but an Offer is an Offer and, if shipped, must be taken serious.

The leaded .408" Brass bullet will, as far as I can predict, still outperform the 419 Grainer from Barnes, not to mention Lost River 419 grs. "High Pressure Fouwler". With 398 Grain and a higher BC (0.9) than all other available, the Haack Minimum Drag Design will initially fly faster and on its Journey stay faster than the others. That translates to a longer useful Range! Therefore a premium Price is in Order, I would suggest.But I get Your Point, only so much Premium will be paid for some, let's call 10% Advantage. That Premium is probably not 100%.

So let me come back to You and Corbin on the leaded Brass Price later. Your request is not forgotten. Ken Johnson from K&P Handguns suggested to research stream caste Lead Bearing Bronze, as a Bullet Material and we will.

I know I can design aerodynamically superior Bullets for Hunters, to those Cost concerns not really, but to do the Trick for Sport shooters, using many more Bullets and therefore are much more exposed to Bullet cost is another Challenge. Let's see, if I can find a Solution.

Sincerely, Lutz

Ok Lutz,

Thank you for all your time and effort. I am still interested if the cost gets closer to $2 U.S. per bullet.

With Kindest Regards, Troy, Samstag, 12. Juni 2004 05:27

Troy,

let me see what we can do. You once mentioned 30.000 Bullets. How did guessed that Number? 300 Rifles by 100 Bullets are 30.000. That Volume and Price would fit, but made on another Multi Spindel Machine we not currently have. That would produce 1 500 000 Bullets a Year. Now i wonder, how to sell that Volume. So currently I design a full Sport bullet line, see ,,Kupfersportgeschosse" and also talk to the Imperial F-Class Folks, who need Stuff under 8 mm with some other Restrictions on Speed an BC Combination to actually shoot long Range buts still limit the Bullets maximum Range, rather interesting Combination to get all Players on a leveled Field, but not to be too restrictive on technical Solutions.

Peter Jackson / http://www.jacksonrifles.com/ is on of the better Shooters i know, he holds also a Record, read http://www.jacksonrifles.com He also scores well in the F-Class as well as in Bisley, even with silenced Guns, much to the Astonishment of some Spectators. He introduced me to long Range shooting and Ballistics. You find his limited d'Antonio-Pejsa exterior Ballistics there too. For Simplicity i just mirror his Page http://www.jacksonrifles.com/ballistics.htm here below

External ballistics

To calculate elevation and windage for long-range hunting and target practice, we developed this MS Excel spreadsheet: pejsa ballistics.xls, which provides a bullet trajectory table in scope MOA. Revised 29 January 2001 to show time of flight and to warn of sub-sonic or trans-sonic bullet speed. Also available as a compressed file: excelbal.zip (9 kb).

For field use, this spreadsheet will print a small MOA trajectory and windage table to stick on a gunstock. For techno-junkies, the spreadsheet will run on a WindowsCE or Psion hand-held computer so you can adjust for atmospheric conditions, wind speed, etc. in the field. For use with a rangefinder, the spreadsheet can be used to calculate windage and elevation MOA for any particular range in addition to the usual tabular output.

Methods and formulae used in this spreadsheet were developed by Prof. Arthur J Pejsa, http://www.pejsa.com/

Internal Ballistics

WinLoad/Wingyro is a useful free program, written by Bisley gunsmith John Knight. It does internal ballistics and bullet stability/rifling twist calculations.

Home

Peter, Hugh Forgie and i started to shoot us warm in Dumfries Galloway hills on some Varmints, i.e. Rabbits, the Sheep farmers hate, because the Sheep brake their Legs in the Rabbit holes. I had no Idea about shooting in the Wind then, but close to the Atlantic the Wind blows, i tell you as a Sailor! Not the soft Breezes from the Baltic pool but with the big Lungs from the endless Ocean. So with his Advice on Windage and actual Scope Setting i was able to willingly shoot young Rabbits on the Shoulder blade on 200 m with one of the Rifles he built in .243 Ackley and the Hornady A-Max. We quickly calculate the allowable Error on that Target 3 x 3 cm:

Name Value Unit Explanation
Circle radius 2200 m Your Distance
Circle Diameter 400 m Radius times 2
Circle circumference 1256 m Diameter times p (3,1415)
3,5 m Circumference Circumference by 360
1' or Minute of Angle  MoA 6 cm Circumference Degree by 60
       
actual Target size 3 m Circumference young Rabbit
Shoulder blade 
½ MoA

My regular Hunt rifle was then a Heym SR 20N then also in .243" Win but meanwhile rechambered to 6,5x65 is here to see:

Heym SR 20 N with Schmidt & Bender 3 - 12 x 50

With that rifle i would not have been able to place that Shot. Not because the ,,Beauty" would not well place Bullets in the desired Direction. See a 100 m Target, holed with .243" Win Norma Factory Ammunition with that Heym SR 20N on 100 m below left. No i was not able, because the Green Hills provides no good Rest, i was accustomed to from my ,,Hochsitz" (high Hunt stool) and his Rifle had a Bipod. Peter later in the Dawn then shot a Sika deer across a Valley, through that the Wind blew crosswise. We were slightly sheltered and Wind speed increased in the Open. So i had no Way to to guess the Wind. As it often rains in Scotland (Paradise for there fast growing Sitka Spruce), some Water in the Air helped Peter to read the Wind and place his Shot on 461 or 641 Meters. I do not remember the correct Number, just pulled the Digits off Memory from Mai 2000 now 4 Year later. While a Sika deer is much larger than a young Rabbit ant its shoulder Blade it about 12 x 12 cm, from sheer Geometry a Shot on 400 would have required just about 1 MoA or on the long Guess 0.65 MoA. I tried that Shot, but lost Sight from the slowly moving Animal so often before beeing able to fire, that approaching Darkness commanded an experienced Scottish Hunter like peter Jackson or Hugh Forgie to act, after their Politeness, to offer me Chance would not bring the Desired Prey within reasonable Time before Darkness.

Peter and Hugh discussed Wind and mutually agreed on the appropriate Windage to set on the Scope. Peter placed one Shot across the Valey and the Sika fell on the Spot. Hurray! After a Hike across the Valley, the next Task was to first find and the recover the Animal. Again the two Buddies, well familiar with their Homelands successfully managed that as well. Once we found the Sika, the Animal revealed Reason, it fell so very quick. While the Master aimed for the Shoulder, in Reality the Hit reached the Neck, a central nervous Desaster with consequent immediate Incapacitation followed. Now the successful Shot was a lucky Miss. The 30 cm Wind drift account for 1,6 to 2,2 MoA. depending on the real Distance i cannot recall, but was either 461 or 641 m, as the Laser Range finder read.

Now the Moral of that Story is manifold. First look up on the Heym and find a ballistic Table on the Scope. I learned that from Peter. If you have more than one Rifle or a bad Memory the ballistic Table is always there when you need it and can read it in the Day. Second Peter very lively taught me a Lesson in Wind drift. third i now fully acknowledge his Answer for my question, what would count for long Range Hinting an d Shooting and his Answer was "70 % Success stems from Experience." I thank Peter and Janet for their Invitation an warm Hospitality, Peter and Hugh for their Advice an long Range Shots and good Time we spent and hope to see them on Day in Germany to get them to hunt some Wild Boar.

Less Conclusions for the 30% Rest of the Success, the Story would not be complete. So while the Steward in Command is always most important in the Rifle, the Lessons for the Equipment are rather simple. As Gravity is well known and ballistic Calculations nowadays handle its Influence on the Bullet Path good enough, the remains unknown. We cannot know the Wind on the full Path. So we must use Rifles with Bullets to buck the Wind, to drift at least as possible. To do so the Bullets shall not be retarded and fly fast; a partly contradictory Desire.

I design my Sport Bullets with that very Contradiction, to buck the Wind, to drift less, in Mind. To turn Bullets on a CNC-Lathe offers Advantages, pressed Bullets will never enjoy, slender Shapes, that would let pressed Bullets stick in the Press and sharp Tips, no Full Metal Jacket or Hollow Point Bullet can ever have. With other stuff than Lead in Copper i can stretch the Bullets to even slenderer Shapes, less exceeding weight Limits do not want to pass to keep the Bullets fast. Remember: The combined Speed and low Retardation (= high BC) grant little Winddrift, not high BC alone. Make no Mistake: Choose no Bullet on BC alone. It must speed, not to drift. Full Knowledge grants currently available Ballistic Software. You cannot optimize a Bullet aerodynamically to perform on Long Ranges in the Wind unless you command a full Software suite for interior and exterior Ballistics and a precise Design tool know the BC by Design. This Insight came after many Trials and a lot wasted Money. Once you do it right, Success becomes much faster. Therefore i now am able to design Bullets from Scratch (Sorry CAD-System and Ballistic Programs) with high Prediction accuracy. So far all my designed Bullets flew as expected and, for Hunt bullets, performed in the Target as expected, because terminal Ballistics are the ultimate Goal for a Hit. Why shoot for Paper, when you can shoot for Meat or to defeat an Enemy.

Hello Mr. Moeller:

The .408" bullets look great! I hope you have great success with them. We'll pass your name on to anyone who inquires about the subject.

Best regards, Dave Manson, Montag, 28. Juni 2004 12:58

Dear Sir

We are going to make some of the .408 Chey-Tac Solid bullets without the canular. They should weigh a few grains more than 419gr because of the loss of the canular. If you would like some, we need you to pre pay. You can call Heather at 800-574-9200 to pre order them.

Thanks, Ty Herring, Mittwoch, 25. August 2004 18:25
Customer Service
TyH@barnesbullets.com
Barnes Bullets Inc.
P. O. Box 215
American Fork, Ut 84003, Tel 801-756-4222, Toll Free 800-574-9200, Fax 801-756-2465

Read more in Snipers Paradise under http://www.snipersparadise.com/ELR/CheyTac.htm

Your .408" Chey tac + 7 mm Tomahawk

Mr. Moeller

I just read your discussion with Warren from Lost River bullets. I tried some of their “great” bullets with no luck. They are magical in that I suspect that one load and one load only will net you the results they achieved but at a price of a small business loan for the price of their bullets.

I had better luck with Sierra and Berger bullets which showed excellent ballistic performance with a few different powders, and seating depths. For that matter the Berger bullets weren’t tolerant of seating depth and gave same performance either touching the lands, fitted into the lands or making a jump to the lands. Lost River bullets never showed signs of any better performance with 7 different powders, and three different seating depths.

I think the mathematical theory is correct and in a computer simulation will result with the type of claims published on their website but in reality they simply do not work as advertised.

I would like to try your 7 mm bullets. I have a Lilja 34 in 1:9 twist 4 groove barrel chambered in a 7 mm Tomahawk, this case is a 7 mm RUM blown out a tad bit and shoulder angle changed. The result is 115.5 grains of water capacity to the top of the neck.

Please let me know the prices for these bullets. I have designed another wildcat cartridge that will utilize a 40 in barrel and a case capacity of roughly 160~165 grains of water. The case has been formed and necked down for the 375, 338 and 308 diameter bullets. I will be very interested once I get the 338 barrel in to try your bullets.

Thank you, Dave Boday, Sonntag, 17. Juli 2005 08:38

Dear Mr. Boday,

thank You for Your Mail. I cannot understand how Lost river Ballistics stays in Business, when so many Folks show up to tell, the LRB Bullets "in reality simply do not work as advertised." I have not sold a lot to America, where I suppose You com from, but read this (I supply the EMail separately, but put them never on the Web, to avoid Spam!):

Hi Lutz,

I thought I would let you know initial results using your bullets in my 9.3 x 62. With 64 grains of Reloader 19, I get 2950 fps and no pressure signs. The powder charge comes up the case neck half way, so I don't think I could fit much more in the case. Accuracy was 3 shots at 100 yards into a 3/8" by 1/2" (inch) group, measured center to center, 2 of the shots touching. This is just amazing accuracy, since my rifle cannot be considered match grade in any sense, and the scope was a 1.5-6 x only.

The alloy has me curious. Although it looks like copper, the specific gravity is too low for pure copper, so I am wondering if it is an aluminium and copper alloy. Don't tell me any trade secrets, but if you can give me any info about the alloy which is not confidential, that may help to satisfy my curiosity.

Thanks again! I will let you know the results that I get on game.

Dan McCarthy, Mittwoch, 6. Juli 2005 18:04

Dear Dan,

thank You for Your Mail.

I am glad, You get along well with the KJG an achieve You Goals. Please keep me updated with Results on Game. Pictures and Stories are always welcome

Quite a few were astonished to get such good Results with the 9,3 mm. I assume the Cause not just in the Bullet well made Precision itself, but also to the Fact, they are lighter than most other 9,3 mm Bullets and therefore shoot more comfortable thereby helping the Shooter, to keep the Rifle on Target. I just returned from Afrika 2005  and have a few more EMails to read and answer.

The KJG - Alloy is 99% Copper  and just 1% different, to allow for better machining. So the Density should almost be that of Copper. If I misinformed the Audience somewhere, I should quickly correct the Type error.

Sincerely Lutz, 16th July 2005,

The 7 mm KJG work well in 7 mm Rem Mag and 7 mm STW with both 1:9" Twist, or 5,37° Twistangle, considered moderate. So I cannot see an Reason, not to use them in the 7 mm Tomahawk. You should expect:

Cartridge          : 7 mm Tomahawk
Bullet             : 7.24, 7.5, Möller 7 mm KJG
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.600 inch or 91.44 mm
Barrel Length      : 34.0 inch or 863.6 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-25

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge, incremented in steps of 0,365% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Gramm    m/s   Joule     bar    bar      %        ms

-01,5   96    6,194   1161    5070    4217    690    100,0    1,358  ! Near Maximum !
-01,1   96    6,217   1165    5101    4272    691    100,0    1,351  ! Near Maximum !
-00,7   97    6,240   1168    5131    4326    692    100,0    1,344  ! Near Maximum !
-00,4   97    6,263   1172    5162    4382    692    100,0    1,337  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00,0   97    6,285   1175    5193    4438    693    100,0    1,330  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00,4   98    6,308   1179    5223    4494    694    100,0    1,323  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     97    6,285   1210    5507    5365    673    100,0    1,234  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     97    6,285   1122    4736    3505    723    100,0    1,462


 Gun / Ammunition : 7 mm Tomahawk
 Bullet           : 7.24, 7.5, Möller 7 mm KJG
 Bullet weight    : 116 grains or 7,52 Grams
 Muzzle velocity  : 1175 m/s
 Crosswind speed  : 4 m/s

 Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1):
 C1=0.435@V>800 m/s;  C2=0.394@V>400 m/s;  C3=0.339@V>340 m/s;  C4=0.411@V>300 m/s;  C5=0.345@V>0 m/s;

 Table of Various Zero Ranges - Trajectory Path to LOS in cm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Range                100 m    200 m    300 m    400 m    500 m    600 m    700 m    800 m    900 m   1000 m
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 100 m   Zero           X       -3,8    -17,3    -42,0    -80,3   -133,8   -207,3   -303,3   -431,4   -596,6
 200 m   Zero          +1,9      X      -11,6    -34,5    -70,9   -122,5   -194,1   -288,2   -414,4   -577,7
 300 m   Zero          +5,8     +7,7      X      -19,0    -51,5    -99,2   -167,0   -257,2   -379,5   -539,0
 400 m   Zero         +10,5    +17,2    +14,3      X      -27,8    -70,7   -133,8   -219,2   -336,7   -491,5
 500 m   Zero         +16,1    +28,4    +30,9    +22,2      X      -37,4    -94,9   -174,7   -286,7   -435,9
 600 m   Zero         +22,3    +40,8    +49,6    +47,1    +31,1      X      -51,3   -124,9   -230,7   -373,6
 700 m   Zero         +29,6    +55,5    +71,6    +76,4    +67,8    +43,9      X      -66,3   -164,8   -300,4
 800 m   Zero         +37,9    +72,0    +96,5   +109,6   +109,2    +93,7    +58,0      X      -90,2   -217,5
 900 m   Zero         +47,9    +92,1   +126,5   +149,7   +159,3   +153,8   +128,2    +80,2      X     -117,3
1000 m   Zero         +59,7   +115,5   +161,7   +196,6   +218,0   +224,2   +210,3   +174,0   +105,6      X
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 254 m   PB Zero       +3,9     +3,9     -5,7    -26,6    -61,1   -110,7   -180,4   -272,5   -396,7   -558,1
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Velocity        m/s  1088,4   1007,1    930,7    858,6    789,3    717,5    649,7    585,4    525,7    470,7
Energy        Joule  4454,3   3813,7   3257,4   2772,2   2342,4   1936,0   1587,3   1288,6   1039,1    833,3
Deflection       cm     1,5      6,2     14,4     26,3     42,7     63,8     91,5    125,3    168,5    220,7
Correction  MOA/m/s   0,119    0,237    0,368    0,505    0,657    0,818    1,005    1,204    1,440    1,697
Time              s   0,089    0,184    0,287    0,399    0,521    0,653    0,800    0,961    1,143    1,345

For Your .375", .338" and .308" I would like to know the Twistrates, You will utilise. If You are into Long Range Shooting (1 km), then long Bullets in short Twists are the Way to go to cut down Wind drift, the real disturbing Factor on the open Range. I might have something special for You in the .338". So if You would be flexible with very short Twists, then i can offer You superior Bullets.

Sincerely Lutz Möller, 18th July 2005.

Mr. Moeller

My number is xyz and I live in Georgia USA. The time is EST. I suspect that you are in Germany is this correct?

I forgot to mention that when using the Lost River bullets I had the correct twist and correct velocity and even exceeded the recommended velocity which according to their site will not affect accuracy. I have some reservations about “no such thing as over stabilization” could you clarify if this over stabilization actually happens in solid bullets. I can see where a lead core would exhibit poor accuracy being that even the slightest void in the lead core and change in wall thickness of the jacket would through off the rotational stabilization. I can’t see where this would actually work with solid bullets as billet is usually void of voids and therefore no rotational deviation would happen when nothing inside the bullet would allow it to happen.

I visited your site about two years ago and from the photos of the bullets exiting the muzzle and subsequent muzzle blast I designed a very effective muzzle brake.

I wish more of your site was in English as it holds no doubt some of the best technical information on par with Harold Vaughns work. I have read his book front to back and back again and have gained a new understanding of all that happens when you pull the trigger.

I think your site has valuable information that can be used to effectively decrease problematic shooting errors.

I will look forward to your call this Friday if you are able to call.
Regards, Dave Boday, Dienstag, 19. Juli 2005 09:10


Dear Mr. Boday,

Sure lack solid Bullets Inhomogenity problems from jacketed Composite (Lead + Copper or alike) ) bullets. That's one benefitial Reason to choose them.

Please read Beat Kneubuehl on Bullet stability: What is the Maximum Lenght of a spinstabilized Projectile? The Problem can exist, but is unlikely to occur in Long range shooting, as to combat Wind drift one most likely will choose the longest possible Bullet. The longer Bullets get, the shorter the Twist must be. With My 6,5 caliber long LM-105 and 9° [Degrees Steepness, not Inches length] Twist barrel I a am at the Limit. But the Limit is, I cannot get shorter Twists from conventional Machines. So Over stabilisation in Long range  Shooting is unlikely.

You honour me, to compar me with Harold Vaughn, but his Work was much broader and more professional than mine. Any it's always nice to hear a Compliment, Thanks!

If You can design an effective Muzzle brake from my Photos, then You understand the Reason to make the Photos at at the first Place. Pleas supply me some Photos and is possible some Measurement data as well. You find the Physics, Mathematics and Apparatus (Ballistic Pendulum, that our Grand fathers already utilised) in Rueckstoss, all in German but the Drawings and Formulas should be self explaining.

I call You as advised.

Sincerely, Lutz Möller, 20th July 2005,

G'day Lutz,

I have ben reading your article on your developments in long range projectiles for a while, and am curious as to whether you sell or could recommend a producer of .408 chey tac projectiles. I am in Australia, and PGWDTI, who recently won the Canadian medium range sniper weapon system contract for the .338" Lapua Timberwolf, made me a Timberwolf in .408" CT. I believe it will be the first in this country and i will be testing it as soon as i can get ammunition.

I appreciate your time and expertise in this matter,

Sincerely, Oren Burg, Mittwoch, 17. August 2005 11:50

Dear Oren,

Projectiles are no Problem, i can supply them easily, but the long ones above need a shorter Twist, than Your Rifle probably will have. To use the new Rifle as it is, you should load the 10,2 mm MSG-kurz, you see above, with Performance up to 1400 m, forget more, as the Bullet goes subsonic. Which Cases will You use? Do You already have Supply, or do You need Help there as well?

I can adjust the Click Table for other Scopes than 1 cm/100 m = 0,344 MoA /Click

Sincerely, Lutz Möller, 16th August 2005,


Hello Lutz,

Thank you for the rapid response and excellent information, it is greatly appreciated.

I am interested in the projectiles and possibly cases, and am wondering how much they will cost, when i place an order it will probably be for around 1000 projectiles and 200 cases, some places will do bulk orders with discounts. Also do you have or can you recommend a producer of completed rounds, as the local importer here is only looking into the American market and the USA are uneasy to export some calibres.

thanks again for your time,

Oren Burg, Donnerstag, 18. August 2005
 

Dear Oren,

before we talk Cases, I must know which Variety Your Rifle is made for. John Taylor and "Friends" put our different Reamers, that result in not interchangable Rilfes an Cases. Please supply the Information (Chamber reamer Specification) and I can answer. Commercials follow off line.

Sincerely

Lutz Möller, 18th August 2005,

Herr Moeller,

I have recently purchased an EDM XM04 .408"Chey-Tac prototype rifle (one of two field test-bed weapons loaned to the USMC for operational testing in Iraq) and was researching load data, when I came across your VERY interesting discussion page with LRB. My rifle has 1/13 twist barrel, and EDM's maintenance procedures suggest that the high friction LRB 419 gr. projectile is prone to fouling. Like other respondents to the discussion thread, I am interested in a low friction/low-fouling "LM-105" type of projectile in .408 caliber for use with my current rifle configuration.

To the point, If you have an extra 500 or so bullets "lying around", I would like to purchase them from you, as well as any recommended loading data you could provide. I would be happy to send feedback about the loads, and if the results prove positive, I will be purchasing many more bullets from you.

Sincerely, Andrew Chaney, Montag, 2. Januar 2006 05:54

Herr Chaney,

the LM-105 type Bullet, that won the 2005 7th Lapua Sniper Cup would require a much shorter Twist than 13 Inch in the .408" CT, so that is no Option. You may safely use the 10,2 mm (.408") MSG-short that as well is a low Friction, low Fouling Bullet, but, as the Name says, shorter, so will stabilize from a Standard EDM-Barrel and have been shot from such Rifle. This Item is rarely asked, so nothing is in stock. Expect about two weeks Lead time after Payment arrived to ship.

Sincerely, Lutz Moeller,

Greenwich Ballistic 408

Hallo Lutz,

I have been doing a fair amount of research into .408 bullets and the caliber in general. Reading back over the entire string Ballistic Coefficient Discussion  there have been a lot of developments since some of the emails you received in 2004 & 2005.

One is that LRBT now only has a limited right to make .408 bullets for the civlian market and apparently will not be making them for the LE or military markets at all. It is my understanding that a company by the name of Greenwich Ballistics now has an exclusive license to make them for LE and military. It seems that some of the quality problems your readers/correspondents write about forced Greenwich to take control of the manufacture of the bullets. I have heard, but yet to confirm, that Greenwich has some connection to CheyTac.

It also seems to be true, as one of your readers states, that the bullets do have to be of a particular size and dimension to get the results that were discussed by W. Jensen and yourself in the earliest part of the string. That is not surprising after one reads (or tries to read) the patent and the formula contained therein to which the bullets are manufactured. It seems to be a rather precise calculation that dictates length, diameter, radius, ogive size etc. If you ever have a hard time falling asleep it can be found at the USPTO website, U.S. Pat No. 6,629,669, Controlled Spin Projectile. But I suspect you have seen it before and if you understand it you are a better man than I am.

You had an Australian reader comment about 408 availability in Australia and I have come across the following information which I have yet to confirm. Rumor has it that Nioa Trading in Australia will be importing both the civilian model of the CheyTac 408 and the ammo, so if true it should solve that problem for him.

The brass in the USA is now being made by Jamison International in South Dakota. I recently obtained some of their current samplings and the shoulder on it appears be different than the one shown in your picture. Perhaps you can look into it and see what if any difference you think it will make. Also, none of the bullets available in the USA (that I have seen) have driving bands on them as yours do. Do you believe they enhance performance and, if so, how? Does the reduced amount of contact area with the barrel affect accuracy?

Mit Freundlichen Gruessen, Tony Cuitino, Donnerstag, 2. Februar 2006

Tony,

thank You for Your Mail.

Drive bands grant less engraving Force and less Friction, compared to conventional soft jacketed Lead Bullets, much less than Solids of harder Material. Measurements see here.

So the initial Pressure behind the just acceleration Bullet is much less. Therefore You can and must load more or faster Powder to ultimately yield higher Muzzle Velocity. That's the Trick. Beneficial for Training is the less Friction and therefore less Heating. You see longer before barrel heat induced Mirage blurs Your Sight. Less Friction also yields less Fouling = less Cleaning and longer Barrel life.

I can see no Merit in the U.S. Pat No. 6,629,669, "Controlled Spin Projectile" at all.

Do You have a URl of Greenwich Ballistics for me?

Sincerely Lutz,


Hallo Lutz,

Vielen Dank fuer Ihre E-Mail. Ich denke nicht, daß Greenwich Ballistics eine Website hat. Aber ich werde Ein suchen.

Thank you also for the info on the drive bands.
Mit Freundlichen Gruessen, Tony, Montag, 6. Februar 2006


Fouling

6,5 mm Lost river Bullets

.408" Lost River Bullet

.408" Lost River Bullet

left LRB Bullet | .408" CT Case |  .338" LM | .338" LM Case | LM 105 Bullet

above: .338 Lapua Magnum with LM-105 Bullet | below .408 CT with Lost River Bullet

Good morning.

I am trying to find a better bullet for my .408 Chey Tac EDM SS99 Windrunner. Better, that is, than the LRBT 419 gr item that fouls so horribly! Can you help?

Garth B Shannon jr, Freitag, 17. März 2006 16:11

Mr. Shannon,

You said on the Phone, Your Rifle shoot in 100 m with LRB Hole in Hole and You were quite satisfied with that. So would I. But You indicated, to shoot five times Shots, require You, to clean two Hours and we both agreed, that would turn the Idea of recreational Shooting Sport upside down and change it into plain Work, not quite the Spirit of recreation.

Yes I can help in many Ways, you may decide upon. Fouling is no Problems with my Drive band Bullets.

Use the short Brass bullet in the usual existing 1:13 Inches Twist and be happy. This is a proven Performer.

Try the 56 mm long bullet in the long 13 Inches Twist and be my Guest to guess, whether it stabilizes, or not. I have my Doubts. The long Brass Bullet with its Haack minimum wave drag  nose requires faster twist, than a bullet with a secant Ogive, like the LRB.

I make You a 56 mm long Brass Bullet with secant Ogive, like the LRB. Because of its slightly lighter Weight, it will also require slightly faster Twist, but not much.

I make You an LRB Clone with Drive Bands from Copper. That will surely fly from You given Gun and solve the Fouling problem, but is more expensive, but will not Excced the LRB Price.

Think about it and let me know, how You would like to proceed.

Sincerely, Lutz Moeller,

 

.408 Fouling & Better Bullets

Hallo Lutz,

Wie geht's? I do not visit the site that often as the last time was 3 months ago, but that is a reflection of time not on the site. I just read the posts re: better bullet and fouling and I have continued to do my research.

One thing about the gentleman's comment of shooting in one hole ay 100 M. This is supposedly not a good thing based on the early radar tests that CheyTac did. When the 408 was working at its peak performance they supposedly saw yawing close in at that distance at only later in the bullet's flight did it stabilize and perform miracles way out there. Just passing it on.

In regard to the fouling, that apparently is an alloy problem. I know a group that has had the alloys tested and at one time or another LRBT was using a cheap cheap copper alloy that was incredibly soft. The earlier bullets were much harder and did not foul as much and showed much better performance at greater distances. Luckily LRBT can not pull these type of cheap stunts anymore. The bullets from Greenwich/Jamison are reputed to be almost 3 times as hard on the B scale.

Tschuess, Tony Cuitino, Brazil, Mittwoch, 24. Mai 2006 04:18

 

408 CT Projectiles in Italy

It is not for to speak bad of Modulo Masterpiece, but i think it's 408" rifle have more a scenic effect than a real. It's incredible, but bullets that i buyed from them have significant differences of weight, lenght and over all of caliber the one with the other! I appreciated the competent and disponibility of Martino Baisotti. He made a superb rifle, with him i made a beatiful shot group at 1000 meters (1 kilometer) that had been published on an italian magazine (Armi Magazine, February 2007)

Mon, 20 Aug 2007 23:53:47 +0200, Giuseppe Sspicola

Dear Mr. Moeller,

thanks for your fast reply; we’d be glad to become your sole Italian distributors. My customers are both hunters and target shooters. Have you a preferred bullet style design for long range matches (600 and 1000 yds)? What is your suggested distance from rifling, for your monolithic bullets, as regard as accuracy? About available bullets weights range of your standard (not custom) offer: could you send me a complete list, even to arrange for our first order? This would be very appreciate as it is difficult for me to search in your web site. Many thanks

Martino Baisotti, giovedì 13 settembre 2007 9.11
www.armeriacamuna.it

GRANDE ARMERIA CAMUNA SNC
VIA NAZIONALE 45 -
25050 NIARDO (BS) - ITALY
PH ++39.0364.339387    FAX  ++39.0364.1955146
IT 01682580988

Dear Mr. Baisotti,

now, 6 Weeks later, I have the required Redding seater for the Lutz Möller KJG available, as You said, Italy would mainly use Redding dies, opposed to Germany, where RCBS and Triebel are more common.

Lutz Möller, 30th October 2007,

Dies

thank you for quick answer.

Before I used Lawton Machine dies for the .408 CheyTac, but I was not satisfied so bought CH4D dies (neck sizer with 434" = 11,02 mm  and 435" = 11,05 bushing + straight line seater) and now I find myself better.

Giuseppe Spicola, 1st November 2007

The real Question

Projectiles for .408" Chey Tac Cartridge

Herr Moller.

My name is Daryl Lenkic and I live in Australia. I have read information about your projectiles for the .408 Chey Tac calibre and would like to know more about them. I have some questions for you:

  1. It appears that in .408 calibre you make a 21g MSG Kurz and a 26g MSG projectile. While the lighter projectile will stabilise in the standard 1 in 13 inch twist barrel, what twist rate does the heavier projectile require to stabilise it?
     

  2. What are the prices for these projectiles? Can you estimate how much shipping to Australia would cost for say, 200 projectiles?
     

  3. Do you have ballistics tables for the 26g MSG projectile form a 30 inch barrel in standard atmospheric conditions?
     

  4. Which cartridge will shoot flatter and with less drift at 1.500 m? The .408 Chey Tac with 26g MSG with appropriate twist barrel, or .338 Lapua Magnum with a 1 in 7 inch twist barrel, using your LM-105 projectiles (assume same barrel length for both calibres)?
     

  5. Who can supply barrels suitable for your heavy projectiles?

Regards, Daryl Lenkic, Sonntag, 2. September 2007 04:13

Herr Lenkic,

You ask the right Questions. 8,65 g Alliant Reloader 22 from Bofors will spill the .408 26g MSG lang out of a 762 mm Barrel with just above 900 m/s. I guess Stability out of a 1 Turn in 13 Inch Barrel to be slightly above 0,8. That is marginal, means the long Bullets may flay well, or tumble. They flew well already, but slight Problems in the Rifle or Load may ruin the nice Picture. To raise Stability up to 1,5 (again an educated computerized Guess), the Twist lenghth should not exceed 250 mm. Than You are on the safe Side.

As You intend to shoot far, I omit to answer the Questions for the 408 CT MSG kurz, as You will gain nothing. Find Your required Table out to 2 km below.

Tabular trajectory data at Std. ICAO Atmosphere
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Gun / Ammunition : .408 CheyTac
 Bullet           : 10.36, 25.8, Möller 10,2 mm MSG Cheyenne Tactical
 Bullet weight    : 399 grains or 25,85 Grams
 Muzzle velocity  : 901 m/s
 Crosswind speed  : 4 m/s 
 Ballistic Coefficient(s) (G1): 
 C1=1.008@V>800 m/s;  C2=0.873@V>400 m/s;  C3=0.711@V>340 m/s;  C4=0.969@V>300 m/s;  C5=0.877@V>0 m/s;

 Table of Various Zero Ranges - Trajectory Path to LOS in cm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Range                200 m    400 m    600 m    800 m   1000 m   1200 m   1400 m   1600 m   1800 m   2000 m 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 200 m   Zero           X      -51,6   -167,6   -363,6   -649,1   1055,2   1604,6   2315,0   3249,3   4440,1   
 400 m   Zero         +25,8      X      -90,2   -260,4   -520,1   -900,5   1424,0   2108,7   3017,2   4182,2   
 600 m   Zero         +55,9    +60,1      X     -140,1   -369,8   -720,0   1213,5   1868,1   2746,5   3881,4   
 800 m   Zero         +90,9   +130,2   +105,1      X     -194,6   -509,9   -968,4   1587,9   2431,3   3531,2   
1000 m   Zero        +129,8   +208,1   +221,9   +155,7      X     -276,3   -695,9   1276,5   2081,0   3141,9   
1200 m   Zero        +175,9   +300,2   +360,0   +339,9   +230,3      X     -373,5   -908,1   1666,5   2681,4   
1400 m   Zero        +229,2   +406,9   +520,1   +553,4   +497,1   +320,2      X     -481,2   1186,3   2147,8   
1600 m   Zero        +289,4   +527,2   +700,5   +794,0   +797,8   +681,1   +421,0      X     -644,9   1546,3   
1800 m   Zero        +361,0   +670,5   +915,5   1080,6   1156,1   1111,0   +922,7   +573,3      X     -829,8   
2000 m   Zero        +444,0   +836,4   1164,5   1412,5   1571,0   1608,9   1503,5   1237,1   +746,8      X     
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 192 m   PB Zero       -0,9    -53,4   -170,3   -367,1   -653,5   1060,5   1610,8   2322,1   3257,3   4449,0   
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Velocity        m/s   838,8    776,2    710,8    648,7    589,5    534,1    482,9    435,8    394,0    353,1   
Energy        Joule  9094,4   7788,0   6530,6   5438,8   4491,7   3687,4   3014,1   2455,2   2006,4   1611,7   
Deflection       cm     3,9     15,6     36,1     69,1    113,0    174,2    252,4    346,5    463,7    604,5   
Correction  MOA/m/s   0,148    0,299    0,463    0,664    0,869    1,116    1,387    1,666    1,981    2,324   
Time              s   0,231    0,479    0,747    1,042    1,363    1,721    2,119    2,551    3,035    3,572     

The Trajectories do not differ much, but the LM-105 shines in the Wind, as it drifts less. To eject both bullets from 900 mm long  Barrels will improve Trajectories a bit, but Wind drift not much. While a few well regarded Manufacturers like Nammo or RUAG offer good .338" LM cases, unfortunately the same cannot be said from the .408" Chey Tac.  While it is bigger, that implies not to be better. But bigger Cartridges annoy the Shooter more than small ones. If You want to utilize existing Rifles for both Cartridges, You may give the MSG Long a Chance, just to proof my Statements with existing Bullets. In the next Step rebarrel the Rifles with a shorter Twist and You are set, upon the Condition to obtain good, reliable Cases.

With the LM-105 You will need any way a new short twisted (at best progressive) Barrel from Lothar Walther but You cannot shoot from the Magazine, as the .338" LM with the LM-105 is 105 mm long (hence Numbers in the the Name, Letters could be either Lapua Magnum or Lutz Möller, whatever You Memory prefers ).  Magazines (except for early Accuracy International .338" LM Rifles, that had too short Magazines) for the .338" LM shall hold 93,5 mm long Cartridges only.

If You have a serious Need for a precise long Range Wind bucker, new Rifles are in Order. As a Test bed for the LM-105 You may get hold of a Gewehr-06, coming this Fall. Then You know. In certain Competitions off Publicity the LM-105 Performance is known already. Of Course the smaller Cartridge is easier to shoot and the Rifles are not so heavy.

Sincerely, Lutz Möller,

 

Projectiles for .408 Chey Tac Cartridge

Lutz

Thank you very much for your detailed response. I originally wanted to get a .338 Lapua Magnum, but switched to the .408 Chey Tac when I discovered this calibre and and Chey Tac system. However, if the .338 can outperform the .408 with your LM-105 projectile, there is no need to go to the bigger cartridge.

LM: Yes indeed. Also You avoid Headaches from the overly big Bang

The trajectory tables you included are very useful, thank you.

I wanted to get a Sako Model 42 TRG rifle in .338 Lapua Magnum. My friend has one and it is a very good unit.

LM: Again, yes indeed!

However, the magazine is too short and the barrel twist is too slow (1 in 12" twist) for the LM-105. I may still get one and rebarrel it with a 1 in 7 inch twist barrel and be content to single load it. Otherwise, I may start from scratch a build a custom rifle.

LM: Pleas consider to purchase the Gewehr-06, coming this Fall

I have some more questions for you that have arisen from your response:

  1. I use Australian ADI rifle powders and note that you listed one of them AR 2213) in one of your load data tables. I imagine that ADI AR 2213SC or AR 2217 or AR 2225 would be appropriate powders for the .408 CT. These are also the powders listed by ADI for use with 300 grain projectiles in the ADI load data manual. Have you used ADI powders with the LM-105?

    LM: No, but I includes some in the LM-105 Load data tables for You!
     

  2. You referred to stability figures of 0,8 and 1,5. How are these figures derived? What is the stability formula that produces these figures?

    LM: I must refer You to a Ballistics Textbook (look for Molitz) as the Derivation is beyond the Scope of this Webspace. Nevertheless look at 5,6x61 Super Expreß vom Hofe to see some Projectiles fly stable with s = 0 ,83.
     

  3. I must admit that I have never heard of the manufacturers Nammo or RUAG. I have read that Lapua made .338" LM brass is very good. This is readily available in Australia. Have you any comments on Lapua brass?

    LM: Lapua is from Nammo. The Brass is first Class!

    You mentioned a progressive Lothar Walther barrel. Is this a 'gain twist' barrel? While this type of rifling reduces the initial pressure by being slower at the start, does not this type of rifling create more deformation of the projectile as the twist changes?

    LM: Yes I mean Gain twist Barrels. They do not alter initial Pressure. Yes the Projectile deform more. My Bullets are designed to accommodate this well.

    Regards, Daryl Lenkic, Australia, Mittwoch, 5. September 2007 05:37

Regards, Lutz Möller,

 

.408" MSG Pictures

.408"CT MSG separately packed to ship (in some more Cover)

.408" CR Brass beauties

Triple

The One

Solid Brass

Lutz Möller, 2nd October 2007,

Rifle Projectiles Supply to the U. S. A.

Good Day Sir,

I hope my email is not a bother to you.

First I would like to start off by saying CONGRATS on your success with your projectiles especially the .338" LM.

Second I would like your help in filling a void we (USA) have in projectile manufactures, more importantly manufacture of solid projectiles for the .408 Cheytac and the .375 Cheytac for tactical and match. As you may or may not know, the company that produced the best, highest BC projo for those 2 rounds is no longer in business (went a different company route).

Just FYI: The 375 CT projos that perform the best are 350 grains, very low drag, BC 1.02, some kind of copper/nickel mix.

The 408 CT projos that perform the best of 419 grains, very low drap, BC .92, some kind of copper/nickel mix.

I was hoping that with the success you have with the .338 LM projos and that you already make a hunting projo in .375 that maybe you could, would consider making a tactical match round.

I look forward to hearing from you,

Thanks in advance--Louis Corkern, Donnerstag, 4. Oktober 2007 21:21

Dear Mr.  Corkern,

Thanks for Your Mail. Your News come not really as a Surprise, as I noticed, the concerned  Website is downs since some Time.

See some .408" MSG Pictures. They show my Projectile for the .408" Chey Tac. It is Brass and designed with a Haack Minimum Wave drag Nose. It is a low Friction, low Fouling and low Engraving Force design. More on that here.

Which kind of Volume and Price would You expect?

I currently have no Dealer for the U.S.A. but currently talk  to Friends in Canada, who are in the Gun Trade and would like to fill that Void. Unclear is currently whether Bullets can easily be shipped from Canada to the U.S.A. I still wait for an Answer.

Once I have the .375 Cheytac Chamber and Twist specification, I could design a Bullet for it.

Please not, next Week i shall be hunting Moose in Sweden and will be off Email after Tomorrow for some Time.

Sincerely, Lutz Moeller,

Hallo Herr Möller!

Vielen, vielen Dank für die wunderschönen Geschosse! Sie sind gestern angekommen. Ich bin rein optisch begeistert. Wie gesagt, leider verfüge ich noch nicht über eine Waffe. Ich werde Ihnen die ersten Testergebnisse nat. mitteilen. Meinen Sie, ich kann Giuseppe nach seinen Ergebnissen fragen oder sollte er nichts von der Lieferung an mich wissen? Ich meine mich daran irgendwie zu erinnern, er wollte wohl mehr als 100 haben.

Viele Grüße Henning Schulz, Sonntag, 7. Oktober 2007 20:33

Help

Hello!

Did you enjoy yourself in Sweden on the Moose hunt?

LM: Yes. It was a great Experience up North!

I need your expertise, please: can you send me reloading data of 560 if possible in English?

LM: See above .408 Chey tac MSG Load data

The right way with your bullets is before to look for to gain the highest possible velocity, for i to have accuracy; i mean do your bullets would work better at the highest velocity possible

LM: Higher Speed gives better Stability. But of Course You have to run the Laddertest to find the sweet Spot in a Load for best Accuracy.

Till now, with traditional bullets i sized only part of the neck (about 60%).Because of drive band of your bullet have i to size totally the neck, or what?

LM: The Bullets are tailored to the JGS #5351 Chamber so the first Driveband touches the Throat. Therefore the Bullets guides the Case, not vice versa. Therforee You fully size the Neck.

I trust in your patient, Mittwoch, 10. Oktober 2007 16:03

Measurements

Hi Mr Moller;

many thanks, like always you are very kind and for that i profit of your expertise (maybe boring you!): following data of the table, loading 8.2 g of 560,  on 10 cartridges i obtained in my 760 mm barrel  a velocity going from 900 at 910 m/sec and that without seeing any signs of overpressure; about 50 m/sec more than indicate in the table; It could be a good think, Right? Does a space of 10 m/sec of difference between 10 cartridge is acceptable?  

Regards Giuseppe

Hallo Giuseppe,

Powders are not that tightly tolerated, as to predict Velocities with three decimal Digits. So be glad to get that Speed. I would comment on the Speed spread, if You would give me the 10 Values, as I need the Distribution to compute the Standard deviation to compare.

Regards Lutz,

 

Round Holes

Hi Mr Moller,

today i wanted to make a test: to shoot at about 1000 meters to see the stability of bullets; it was very  windly (it moved bullets 90-100 cm on the left on the target) and i did groups of 30-40 cm, but i wasn't interested in accuracy. I saw bullets seem to arrive in right way: the hole was good, round. Should it be a good thing, right? At least at 1000 meters

Regards Giuseppe, Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 15:18

Hallo Giuseppe,

when You would read the first Post in this Matter in German, Kreisrunde Löcher, stating exactly circle round Holes at 950 m/s v0 in a shorter Distance, You woul know, I expected exactly that from the .408 MSG, but I do well understand how excited You are. Yes, that`s a good Thing. I wonder how You proceed. Please keep me updated.

Regards Lutz, 

Hi Mr Moller,

How are you? Unfortunately I stopped my tests, because I can't find for now W 560.I have W170 and 165 Can you please to tell me, witch is better and reloading (starting) data, while I try to find 560? If I would order to you other .408" bullets, can you make me better price?

Regards, Giuseppe Spicola, 29th October 2007


Fast Vihtavuori N170

OK Mr Moller,

that's all right; send me your complete data, so i can send you money. Please make only one shipment, when you will have all ready. 

PS like always i need you! Because of, at the moment, i can't find W 560, i charged any cartridge with W 170, knowing it is not ideal; in effect i gained velocities about 870 m/sec. It could be a bad thing for your bullets, but when i saw results at 1000 meters, i surprised myself because of 4 rounds on the target 3 was in 11 centimeters. I don't understand: maybe we have to see again our opinions about velocity (is it a low velocity better?)?

Please tell me what do you think. I  am going crazy!

Giuseppe Spicola, Donnerstag, 1. November 2007 18:41

Hallo Giuseppe,

the Powders are not always the same. Sometimes they burn livelier, sometimes lazier, So be lucky to get 870 m/s v0 instead of 820 m/s. To find a Sweet Spot use the Ladder Test.

Regards Lutz,

GS: Hi, I charged 135.5 grain of 170 = 8,78 g.

LM: Giuseppe, if You fill more Powder, Speed increases. It's as simple as that. Can You send me a good Picture of the Case bottom and the Primer please?
 

Case Bottom

Hi,

these are the pictures you wanted, but i see they are of poor quality; i will try to do better.

I want to do a consideration about BC of the bullets. Please correct me if i am wrong. I charge 136 grain of WIHT. 170 and bullets LEAVE THE BARREL AT 880 M/SEC. I MADE A FEW OF TESTS SHOOTING AT 1000 METERS AND BALLET DROP IS ABOUT 760 CENTIMETERS. SO YOUR BULLETS HAVE A BEHAVIOUR LIKE A BULLET HAVING A BC OF 0,76. MAYBE DO WE HAVE TO RECONSIDER THE BC VALUE YOU GAVE ME BEFORE?

ATTENTION, PLEASE,

MAIN IS NOT A CRITICISM, YOUR BULLETS WORK BETTER THAN I WAITED FOR. THE GROUP YOU SEE IN THE PICTURE HAD BEEN DONE AT 1000 METERS WITH A POWDER THAT IS NOT OPTIMAL (FOLLOWING YOUR ADVICES). I AM VERY SATISFIED OF THEM. WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT?, giuseppe.spicola Donnerstag, 8. November 2007 22:35

Hallo Giuseppe,

the Primers an Cartridge bottom are off Focus, so I cannot view the Primers clear. Anyhow, of what I see, they seem all right.

The calculated Drop @ 880 m/s v0 in 1.000 m is about 850 cm. So when You measure only 760 cm, the Bullets are much better than anticipated. I wonder, whether that could be the Case. I do not believe that. I assume we detect here a Communication- or Measurement problem or Unequality.

Regards, Lutz ,

Alert

left: correct .408 MSG Chey Tac | right: faulty Projectiles

left: correct .408 Chey Tac | right: faulty Projectiles

One Customer detected faulty .408 Chey Tac Projectiles. If those are the rare Exception, possibly from Vibration from a bent Brass rod, or a more general Failure in a certain Batch, I do not know yet. Please cooperate. All, who received those Bullets, please check, whether all are all right. Please return faulty Bullets. I shall replace them at no Cost.

Lutz Möller, 9th January 2008,

Shot through Tree

Hi Mr Moeller,

today, while I was shooting at 1000 meters, unfortunately hit a tree. It's diameter was about 25 centimeters. The .408 Chey Tac MSG Bullet passed it like paper. Entrance and exit hole was very small. The bullet deviated down towards the terrain and entered about 30 cm into the ground. I excavated and took her. I am surprised, because bullet was perfect without any deformation, like you can see in the pictures. Fine!

Please if you put that in the web, don't make my name. Regards, Sonntag, 20. Januar 2008 10:51
 

Only one Hole

Hi, he shoot Remongton Police .300"Win paper target at 100 meters. At the end of this month competitions begin. He would need something of very good because would to win. Last year he won two of five races. He shoots Lapua cases,42 grains of Wiht.140, Cci bench rest primers,72 mm long cartridge.

He was surprised because i never shoot my .408 Chey Tac at 100 meters, but i made him try my rifle with your bullets.

He made three rounds in only hole!

Giuseppe, Date : Wed, 19 Mar 2008 09:26:05 +0100

Horneber .408" CT Cases

Hi Lutz,

you can prepare 300 bullets for paper target shooting at 100 meters on a Police 700(308") and more 100 target shooting bullets at 500 meters (i mean 308" Casteltermini), so for a total of 400 bullets. Can you make a good price?  However send me address for my friend to ship money.

About 408" chey tac, i use Horneber cases and i am very very satisfied. Before i used Jamison cases, but i found they were very bad: i could shoot them only two or three times, after primer hole enlarged a lot, so i couldn't reload them behind. With Horneber cases you will not belive me, but i reload them 11-13 times and after i don't continue because i am afraid they break itsself, but i see nothing of strange over them, to put the primer in case hole is always strong. In the bottom is written: 408 Chey-Tac XM-2. The problem is to contact Horneber: i sent many e-mail before i had an answer. I have to wait a lot of time for i have cases whitout having any notices; at least i thought, Horneber didn't want to stay in business with a little customer. Cost has been 350 Euro for 100 cases. About die: I use Ch4D; particulary a 408" bushing neck sizer (with three different size of bushing) and a 408" straight line seater. More i cut an other 408" full sizer and use it for to size only part of the body of the cases, because it enlarge a bit after the shot and it is hard to close the action if i don't size it.

Hallo Giuseppe, Wed, 19 Mar 2008 12:10:47 +0100

Kupfer-Nickel schmiert

So Herr Möller,

wir haben mal die Ladungsleiter  geschossen. Bei 8,1g Norma MRP ergibt sich eine Gruppe.

Außerdem haben wir rausgefunden, das die Lost River Geschosse den Lauf wirklich unglaublich verdrecken. Ich hatte alle Warnungen überlesen und gedacht, das würde nicht so schlimm sein aber wir haben eine Stund geschruppt und da sind immer noch Flecken im Lauf!

LM: Die Kupfer-Nickel-Legierung wählte Warren Jensen vermutlich, um etwas härteres als reines, weiches E-Kupfer zu zerspanen. Von der Bearbeitbarkeit, mag das sogar stimmen, aber er vergaß die Laufreinigung. Salmiakgeist oder Ammoiumoleat lösen Kupfer, schnell, schonend und gründlich, aber Nickel nicht. das war Jensens Fehler. Da er aber in allen Dingen gänzlich unbelehrbar ist, und im übrigen aus dem Geschäft, wird sich da nichts mehr ändern. Messing und die von mir verwendete niedriglegierte Kupferlegierung ohne Nickel lassen sich vollständig aus dem Lauf entfernen.

Also ich hätte jetzt gerne zum weiteren schießen 300 Stück Ihrer 408 Geschosse.

LM: 100 Stück werden am Montag reisen. Der Rest folgt später.

Vielen dank und schönes Wochenende, mit freundlichen Grüßen, Michael Manousakis,  Freitag, 2. Mai 2008 15:56

Fun in Russia

Dear Mr. Moller,

I have read most of your articles. Thank you so much for such interesting information!

I am a bit experienced shooter (in Russian measures), once took a 1-st place in Russian National Varmint Championship in 2006, a few other championships and was a member in Russian National Team in 9-th World Bench rest Championships in 2007 in Holles, Austria. Actually there I have heard about your bullets the first time from one of my good friends Christian Springer, the owner of Joh. Springer's Erben. gun company. Christian uses your 9.3 bullets to hunt in his hunting area in Austrian Alps and is very happy with their performance. I hope you know him. So, about me.

I want to order a rifle in caliber .408 Chey Tac and plan to use "solids" to move from 6PPC short range shooting to a long range, over 1 mile fun.

LM: For a Mile, weather Land- or Nautical-, that is not a bad Idea!

As I read in your articles you produce bullets for .408" Chey Tac (Lost River J40 type, but of your construction).

LM: Yes!

These bullets I want to use, but I was rally interested in those that you have made for .375" Viking very high BC SPINDLE type solids.

LM: In Stock!

I have a few questions to you:

1). What twist do I need for your standard LM low Friction 27,15 g Bullet (.408-CT-MSG)?

LM: 330 mm

2). Did you try to make any spindle type bullet in .408 caliber and did you test it?

LM: No. But if You want one You need a Barrel with about 20 cal Twist or 208 mm.

3). As you know shooters have a legend about accurate and non accurate bullets, so, what do you think about Spindle type bullets? Are they accurate?

LM: Yes!

If you have made .375" Viking, who tried it them and what was accuracy results?

LM: Two Customers in Amerietwa I shall send You Details. Bullets are delivered, but Guns are not ready yet.

4). What twist do I need to use Spindle type bullets?

LM: About 208 mm!

5). Will a twist for your standard .408 LM low Friction 27,15 g Bullet work with a heavier .408 Spindle type bullet?

LM: No. Short Bullets fly stable from long Twists, but long Bullets need short Twists.

 6). What action would you recommend me to use for .408 CheyTac caliber (Lawton)?

LM: Talk to Martino Baisotti, or ask me for a Development.

7). How long do you think the barrel should be for .408 CheyTac rifle (1000 mm or longer)?

LM: For a sound Answer, I would first have to design a Bullet. A Guess would be around 80 - 100 cm.

8). If I will load a .408 CheyTac case with Spindle type bullet will, there be enough volume to make the speed up to 920-950 m/s?

LM: No concrete Answer before I designed it.

Or I would need to Acklize (improve) the shell like it is made with JDJ-tipe cases http://www.sskindustries.com/

LM: May be.

9). What material do you use for bullets? Is it just a usual bronze?

LM: Bronze is too hard for the Barrel. For Bullets over 10 mm, I use Brass.

Do I need special solvents to clean out the copper (bronze) folding?

LM: Use NH3 solved in Water. Ammonia is a common Chemical.

10). If your bullets are made of bronze, does it give more fouling then copper or harder removable (then usual bullets)?

LM: My Bullets are designed and perform for low engraving Force and low Friction, hence they fowl less, than conventional jacketed Lead bullets or other Solids.

11). Is it possible to make a hunting bullet of KJG type (with hole in the nose or with a plastic tip) for .408 CheyTac with same weight, Ballistic Coefficient as a solid LM low Friction 27,15 g Bullet or possible spindle bullet?

LM: If that is a Goal from the Beginning for both Types (fro Paper and for Meat), Yes!

This is for universal use, not to change scope mood and shoot same as from match grade solid as well as with KJG bullet.

LM: Ouch! That is difficult, but should be possible!

I have also ordered a rifle in 6,5mm-08 AI caliber (improved 260 Rem. To 40º shoulders). As I know Barnes produce light bullets named Varmint Grenade used for varminting in 5,6 and 6 mm. Is it possible for you to make these kind of "explosive" bullets for 6,5 mm in heavy weight for 8,5 inch twist and with high BC (about 0,6)?

LM: Not really. Part of the Reason to fragment easily is high Speed from low Weight. So the two Goals contradict themselves.

Do you know what materials do they use for these bullets? Copper cover and pressed tungsten powder inside?

LM: I really do not care!

Great thanks! Boris Kheyfits, Mittwoch, 9. Juli 2008 23:3

Neuanschaffung für Langstrecke

Hallo Herr Möller,

da ich beabsichtige mir ein Gewehr in .408" Chey Tac zuzulegen möchte, möchte ich mal ihre Meinung über diese Patrone hören. Es gibt Leute die behaupten, daß diese Patrone sehr schwierig und außerdem nicht gut wäre. Ich erörtere außerdem schon geraume Zeit über Lauf- und Dralllänge sowie den von ihnen angesprochen Drallwinkel. Meiner Meinung nach sollte die Lauflänge für diese Patrone, speziell zum Long Range schießen zwischen 36" und 40" liegen. Wie ist ihre Meinung?

Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Werner Britten , Sonntag, 27. Juli 2008 16:09

Tag Herr Britten,

wie weit wollen Sie schießen? Wieviel Winddrift können Sie vertragen?

die Leute die so ein Ding haben, sind damit zufrieden wie sie ist und freuen sich seit 2004 an den 56 mm langen 408 CT MSG aus Läufen mit 330 mm Drallänge mit kreisrunden Löchern in der Scheibe. Die Läufe sollten über 70 cm lang sein.  Der Rest zu der Patrone steht auf dieser Seite.

Besser ist die .375 Chey Tac! Für Ihre Was-wäre-wenn-Spiele beschaffen Sie sich Quickload mit Quicktarget! Die Programme beantworten Ihre Fragen.

Waidmannsheil, Lutz Möller

.408" CT dies

Thank you for the link, Guter Treffer | Super Sniper | Flimmerfrei | Montag, den 3. Mai 2010

I have got my .408CT rifle, and now I fight with reloading. Or to be precise with the dies that are not good.

Regards, Jurek

LM: Which Dies?

Hi Lutz,

I have two brands of dies.

CH4D
Resizing die was so tight that it was not possible to size the cases (no way to press the case so deep to get contact between shell holder and the die) and the setting die has a profile that crimps the case ! I have sent the resize die back  and I will reshape the setting die by reaming the collar that crimps the case. It is probably better than to use shimmy (spacer).

COMPETITOR
Resizing die is somewhat too wide so it is difficult to load and extract the resized case even it was not fired. Setting die presses the bullet by meplat ! This was already corrected by me as it was destroying your nice, and very slim bullets !

So as you see, it takes a hell of work to reload the .408 CT, or to eliminate problems with tools.

The worst is yet to come: I wanted to test shoot my new rifle today but we have heavy rain and to develop optimal load with this kind of weather would be stupid. So I stay at home and I am looking for clever solutions to the resizing problems. I remember that Michael also mentioned resizing problems with his dies.

Regards, Jurek, Montag, 3. Mai 2010 19:31

.375 Chey Tac | Martino Baisotti | 1022

English Rifle Articles